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The Ultimate Project - Turning 5k into 1b in 1 month using market only

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Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:20:00 - [1] In another thread a person came under fire as people believed it was impossible to earn 3b in 3 months. I decided to attempt a similar challenge for no other reason but to test myself. Bouncer Ricdic is a few days old. He only has Trade 3 and refining level 4 (noob starter skills for a research toon). He will be training skills. The Goal To turn 5,000 isk into 1,000,000,000 isk over a 1 month period The Rules - Starting with a 5k wallet (not using the damage control) - Only allowed to use player trades (not npc) - Not allowed to scam - Not allowed to accept loans or cash injections of any sort - Full tracking through EMMA (Ambo's software) - All trading done out of Jita - No spaceship command skills to be trained Why Bother? To see if it can be done. Furthermore to see what next month brings in terms of if I reach my 1b goal, can I turn that into 5b the following month? 25b the month thereafter? We all know you need isk to make isk. We also know that there are certain points where it becomes far harder to double/triple your isk as your wallet hits the heights of the bell curve. Will you allow shareholders? No, I don't see any point. Allowing shareholders means injecting capital and defeating the purpose. Why do we care? Well if you don't care you shouldn't have opened this thread. It's a market experiment. I believe the market has tons of profit opportunities and want to take part from a noob's view. You have been playing years so have an advantage! Not necessarily. I am simply going through the market, finding high volume trades and working on them. At this point nothing (short of mental trading skills, economics 101 etc) is giving me an unfair advantage Precisely 24 hours ago the project started. My next post will outline where I am at right now and where I expect to be this time tomorrow.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:36:00 - [2] 24 hours later Buy Orders Orders Remaining: 2 out of 17 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 147,698.71 ISK (additional -0.01 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value Sell Orders 4 orders currently in play, valued at 147,319.11 Assets on hand valued at 457,714.07 Current NAV : 752,731.89
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:45:00 - [3] Originally by: Block Ukx Could you post details about how did you went from 5K to 1 Mil? When I get there sure. But a lot of the items I am trading now are things I will keep trading for a while so I don't really want to give them up. I can do an export on EMMA if one or two people want a copy to see what I am doing Basically just the old rule, of buy low (order) sell high (order). I have started moving into longer range orders as well with courier missions etc providing deliveries. I will try and get a report up from EMMA that can be publically listed.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:51:00 - [4] I prefer someone who isn't quite as noob as you to provide the report too. Non-noobs won't bother with these kinds of trades, they aren't worth the time. Actual noobs would just buy into all the things I am buying into
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:59:00 - [5] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 16/01/2008 16:01:20 Originally by: Tobin Shalim Isn't that kind of the point, though? :) So that us noobs can learn the basics on where to start for market trading? Once the project is finished, or those items specifically aren't helping me achieve my goals you can have the lists of them. But if you start working with them now my profit margins drop and I risk missing my goal. If things go to plan I would like to be at 2m over the next 1-2 hours before bed. Then tomorrow the aim will be to convert that to 10-15m. edit: My problem at this point is that I have all my orders in use, training Retail Level 1 now. However the road to retail will be long with my Charisma 3 and Willpower 6 attributes. I have definetly disadvantaged myself coming into this project but it just makes the challenge more worthwhile. I gotta get taxes reduced a bit as well
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:04:00 - [6] Originally by: Shuan Jedai Oh, and I believe our gang passed you hovering on some low sec gate in a newbie ship yesterday =) Yeh, in terms of time I would put about 3 hours to the past 24 hours of dedicated trading time. As for the above quoted thing, yeh I set autopilot and went off in my trusty Ibis forgetting that CCP have lowsec on by default for noob characters. In an effort to improve the new player experience one would think "hisec by default" would be wiser. Hell I am a seasoned vet and didn't realise. Surprisingly whilst someone killed my empty ibis (replaced in station :)) no-one actually podded the toon. He was sat there in space in Tasti (0.3 iirc) for 3 hours in a pod and no-one killed it Anyway I have since fixed the autopilot
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:07:00 - [7] Block if you come online or provide a contact email address I can pass you the characters API details so you can track it if you want . Alternatively I can send the export to you from EMMA but I think some of it's reports aren't showing proper data.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Tobin Shalim One question I hope you might be willing to answer: are you doing all your trading from just the Jita system, or are you having to run orders around to various systems for buying/selling? To start I couldn't afford the 1000 isk minimum reward for the courier system so I couldn't utilise that. Plus when starting it was barely worthwhile with most trades. My buy orders mostly have 5 jump ranges out of Jita, but it all depends on the way the buy is structured. Generally buy orders in Jita station are decent and profits are minimal as people just resell there. However usually getting a 5 jump range allows far higher markups on produce (ie paying 100 isk for items you can sell for 10,000 isk, or melt for 1,800 isk with no skills. So I am starting to get into the courier mission type setup, but at this point mostly just a little fly around here and there in my trusty Ibis, mainly because I don't have a lot of orders to manage etc. Once I am getting decent quantities of buys in various locations I will look at couriers and minimalise the whole undocking aspect. With a 5k start there's no room for error and 1,000 isk on a courier contract (plus a 1000 isk contract broker fee) is just way too steep.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:56:00 - [9] People always find a way to make money off me in some way or other. It's a good bet to make though either for or against. I know what I want to do but don't know which side I would want to be betting on Come on SencneS. Only 10m..... Raise the ante a bit
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 17:00:00 - [10] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 16/01/2008 17:00:20 Should give an idea on how some of this is going On one of the items I am buying, here are the options: 1,035.52 BUY (price I bought at) 185,763.32 REPO (price I get if I reprocess with my crap repo skills) 568,828.16 SELL (price I get if I can resell with lowest sell order on market) So I can make a dead easy 1000% markup on a reprocess Or I can take some time to try and get the item sold (quantity of 65 atm) for a higher profit. Basically that's what I will do. I will try to sell as much on market for 5000% profit margins (quite needed to get to my goals) but if the quantity seems to be coming in faster than I can resell I will settle for 1000% profit margins. At this point it does look like the incoming far exceeds the outgoing so I might be putting my reprocessing boots on. I am losing quite a bit of mins with only refining level 4 and zero standings but the above numbers take that into consideration
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:25:00 - [11] Just heading to bed now. A quick valuation gives us about 2.7m NAV at this point. Catch you guys tomorrow
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:43:00 - [12] Yeh theres no way for me to fake being a noob much more than I am already doing. I gave myself a disadvantage to start by having such a crap character for the job. That's gonna be the hardest obstacle I cross I think. There's tons of opportunities for me and I even have the available capital now but just don't have enough order slots. I will make do with what I have (and can train). Implants will be a likely addition soon tho.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.16 18:53:00 - [13] hehe thanks Fitz. Block I have evemailed you my API details for Bouncer Ricdic so you can see what I am doing As I said to him in an evemail, once this project is complete I would like to have a public version of it, not to show high profit items but to show how almost every item on the market is a potential high profit item if you know how to approach it.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 03:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Deez Onit Edited by: Deez Onit on 17/01/2008 00:52:33 I think Ricdic getting to look in my wallet spurred this on... Good luck, it shouldnt be a problem. Btw, I'll check out your report for you ricdic if you need someone. Nah this thread got me wondering if it was possible and/or easily attainable after people questioned that person's ability to make as much isk as was claimed using only a trade alt. I have however given myself a painful disadvantage, that of a character totally unsuited for the job. But they don't call it a challenge for nothing. I must say I am amazed at some of the people betting for me. If I could bet, I would probably bet against myself as it won't be easy in any way, shape or form. In terms of odds there probably should be a 'bookie' so I have asked Selene D'Celeste a broker on the Eve Hold'em channel run by Curzon Dax and friends. He can take bets, determine odds etc. Frankly it is a tough challenge and I would personally recommend odds to the tune of 5:1 against me at this point. Not to discredit my abilities but it is awfully challenging and I done it to see if I could, not because I knew I could. Anyway I don't want to negatively influence further bets, and the gambling aspect could be enjoyable once Selene starts regulating it Will give an update in the next coupla hours but I think we are close to 5-6m at this point.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 04:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Treelox just for the sake of clarity, this 1B in a month, is that 30days or a calender month? I ask because January as most of us should know has 31 days in it. I just ask this since bets are being set and sides are being taken, you might aswell outline the exact time that this project is complete. Let's say 30 days But yeh the whole betting thing wasn't something I expected so I didn't really think I would need everything 100% covered Selene has a thread going up now in events discussion
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 04:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 17/01/2008 04:49:25 Would it be possible for you to mail me your api info so I can track your wallet transactions? I'm quite interested on how you're doing this. Thanks EDIT: Oh and what program would I use to look at this info? Sorry mate I can't provide this at the moment. I use the API to track my orders. I have given the API to Block Ukx and Selene (above) to monitor under the express conditions they only update once or twice per day. This way it doesn't have an affect on my profit earning abilities. Everything will be published in 30 days
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 05:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Kyrial Tidolfas edit: i must add. buying underpriced items to reprocess is not really that market related. in the strict sense that market is buy/sell only. but i dont make the rules The reprocessed goods go onto the market. Having said that, very little of my trading is being reprocessed, most is just straight market work. I have done a new audit and current NAV is at 3,022,191. Not as high as I thought but we still have about 10 hours until day 2 comes to a close
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 06:03:00 - [18] I guess you are probably right, but either way the plan is to work in trade. The main idea behind stating it as such was that there would be no mining, no training of spaceship command skills, no killing of any sort, etc. I didn't specifically mention production but I can state now I won't be engaging in any production.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 06:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Le Thumper What is EMMA software? (Link will do) EMMA
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 14:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Nyphur Looks like someone didn't read the first post :p. He's not allowed to accept help from any player. I think he refers to a conspiracy whereby I lose on purpose and he puts down god awful amounts of isk for uber income and a cut for me.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:06:00 - [21] End of Day 2 Report Orders Remaining: 5 out of 33 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 717,219.98 ISK (additional -0.00 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value NAV Buy Orders - 717,219 Cash - 226,895 Assets Jita - 2,723,541 Assets Other - 1,169,000 Sell Orders - 1,889,000 Goods Other - 90,000 (skill books etc) Total NAV - 6,815,655
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.17 17:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Mr McCargo Keep it up, Ricdic!Can you tell us, though, when will you get Margin Trading, as it would make the trading alot easier. Margin Trading requires Level 4 trade and Level 4 accounting. At this point I don't even have Accounting Level 1. Right now all my training is being put into Retail (increase max amount of orders) as that's probably the most important thing for me right now. Once I get retail to 4 I will look into getting accounting to 4 and then margin trading 2 or so. That's what I mean about this being a really crappy character for a project such as this
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.18 01:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Block Ukx This needs some clarification as it seems to me you are reporting Projected NAV instead of intrinsic NAV. I value on hand assets at market price (price I could get if i sold them now) I value buy orders at just the capital in use (as I don't own them yet) I value sell orders at market price Prices in the market are always changing so it's impossible to have this 100% accurate but I value it based on the best sell order. Plus I round to the nearest whole number to save my sanity Quote: Are asset valued based on acquisition price, mineral price, average sales price, or projected sales price? Based on what I said above, I would say projected sale price. I could base them off average sale price but I don't have a large enough test bed of sales yet to get a good idea on average pricing (would be a whole lot easier though) Quote: Also, I consider skill boks as expendable and are not part of the NAV. Understood, I won't list it as part of NAV any more.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.18 01:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Chribba SCAM! I want my ISK back!! oh wait I haven't even paid anything... Keep up the good work will be interesting to see how you do in the end Posting in a Chribba thread!! Oh wait! Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord I presume that this means that the goal is to have a wallet balance of 1 bil or over, rather than a NAV? No the goal is to have a NAV of 1 billion isk. Basically to turn a 5k noob into someone valued at 1 billion isk. If it were cash it would be a nightmare trying to complete all orders before the operation finished. Originally by: Katherine Sharpe What's a NAV? Info on NAV It's pretty straightforward. It's the simple value of everything I own minus everything I owe. (rent, debt etc) The only real part that can be confused is the way I determine NAV. I basically calculate it as what I should be able to get if I sold everything on the market Thanks for the posts guys
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.18 04:19:00 - [25] Well I would rather see if I can do it before writing a guide Anyway once it's all over I will organise a live copy of the whole operation so people can see exactly how I done it. It won't show you a few good items, but ways you can make money off almost every single item on the market.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.18 08:53:00 - [26] Well yeh it all depends on what you deal with. I usually stay away from the highly traded items simply because I can't be bothered updating my orders every 5 minutes. At this point I check my orders every few hours and out of maybe 40 orders about 5 may need updating. It's also interesting to see the amount of market manipulation being done in Jita on a daily basis. When people say market manipulation they automatically assume minerals but there is so much more than that. I have watched about 9 different items over the last 3 days with blatant market manipulation. Only 2 thus far have held their manipulated values with new sellers holding onto those same prices (or manipulators buying them out). But I have rode both waves a little, and made sure to jump out before the prices have dropped. Thus far not a single item I have purchased has been sold at a loss. I generally don't bother trading the item if the following conditions aren't met: 1) If in same station I look for at least a 5k profit margin 2) If in a 5 jump range I look at at least a 10k profit margin 3) If item in question is valued above 30k I don't trade it unless I can double it's value. At this point I am finally in a position where I can get buy orders down on some extremely fast turnover items, buying at 220k selling at about 560k. These are really helping me close the gap and get enough available capital to break the 10-15m barrier.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.18 15:00:00 - [27] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 18/01/2008 15:01:56 End of Day 3 Report Orders Remaining: 6 out of 41 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 4,673,539.99 ISK (additional -0.00 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value NAV Buy Orders - 4,675,560 Cash - 447,325 Assets Jita - 336,000 Assets Other - 443,000 Sell Orders - 7,896,000 Total NAV - 13,797,885 First post has been updated I am starting to feel like I am getting enough capital to spread my wings so tomorrow should be a nicer day
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.20 02:38:00 - [28] Sorry for the delay, I just got back into work from holidays and my first day back involved a crapload of overtime and trackwork on our rail lines. Just another complexity in the challenge I guess. Anyway, things are doing ok with the project, I will post full NAV info for both days after downtime today
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.20 14:32:00 - [29] Yeh it's a hard compromise. The 3m or so on implants would put a large dent in my capital available for trade. I really need to be in a more stable position to do so, at which point some would question if there was any point bothering.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.20 15:18:00 - [30] End of Day 4 & 5 Report Orders Remaining: 25 out of 41 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 5,579,840.07 ISK (additional -0.00 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value NAV Buy Orders - 6,289,108 Cash - 671,061 Assets Jita - 1,600,000 Assets Other - 9,739,000 Sell Orders - 6,070,000 Total NAV - 24,369,168 (Due to my lack of reporting yesterday I will split earnings by 50% in my first post. It won't be precise but is a lot more encouraging than calculating the difference on every item traded in the past 24 hours. Now, my trading has been severely limited with my being back at work (not to mention a promotion) and you can see the lack of orders in use. This isn't necessarily due to laziness, but in my trying to get a break with a few higher priced items. If they sell off it will add a lot of extra capital allowing me to stage myself a bit higher again. Still, I dislike my time restrictions as I feel I could have broken 35m today had I not been back at work. Anyway I will do what I can with the time I have left. I have a spreadsheet showing my bare minimums needed to achieve after each day. Based on that spreadsheet on day 6 I need 23.5m so I am achieving a day in advance of my projections. I definetly do need to get more of a foot up as the projected income gets a lot higher each day (day 29 requires 120m profit in 24h) See you guys tomorrow
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.22 02:02:00 - [31] End of Day 6 Report Orders Remaining: 20 out of 41 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 15,988,111.75 ISK (additional -0.00 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value NAV Buy Orders - 15,988,111 Cash - 274,842 Assets Jita - 148,000 Assets Other - 5,568,000 Sell Orders - 2,598,000 Total NAV - 24,576,953 Not much happened over the last 24 hours due to my RL work commitments etc NAV didn't go up by much. Not listed is that I have purchased some items / skills etc to help with the project. Either way today was a pretty plain day (maybe had 20 mins to spend working markets.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.22 04:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Astorothe Originally by: Bouncer Ricdic Not listed is that I have purchased some items / skills etc to help with the project At this point, barely a week into the long march, are you still feeling confident of reaching your goal? It's still too hard to determine. With me being back at work it is a lot harder to handle the project (only 1-2 hours a day being put into it) but my weekends may be enough to pull me through. Whats interesting to note is the difference between day 5 and day 6. You can see on day 5 I had a little to buy with a lot for sale, whilst on days 6 I have almost triple the amount on buy orders with very little for sale. This is a perfect example of my not being at the PC to get more sell orders up and sold so all my buys have just been piling up. Anyway I would probably say I am not overly confident in my ability to make this happen under the current conditions but I do have a little trick up my sleeve that will be mentioned later
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.23 04:54:00 - [33] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 23/01/2008 04:54:28 Originally by: Grayclay Ricdic, what are the chances you could post a screenie of your income report? Would be interested to see the intricacies of the money your making. Something like this: Linkage to statistics
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.24 05:43:00 - [34] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 24/01/2008 05:45:16 Hey guys a quick update. I am now on my 2 day weekend so will be working at getting the project back on track. Now there will be a few modifications to try and keep the goal a possibility. Firstly I should mention, anyone betting on this should have the option to bail etc based on the changes. The project was never intended to be a betting arena and I don't want people to lose funds over my RL changes. So I have Jury Duty starting on 4th February. This may go for 1 day or 2 months it's too hard to tell. Because of this jury duty my work has me working 7 days next week. Basically this means I might have 5 more days before I am away. If I go to Jury Duty I will pause the project whilst gone. Anyway I have restructured a bit. I have hired a helping hand. Takimi Star is a 6 day old character. He is new to Eve. A few days back he came to me for advice and instead got a job. He has been dealing with courier jobs etc to which he gets a 25-125m payout at the end of the month. Not only that, he becomes my protege. I teach him everything I know about trading, he watches how I am trading, knows prices, has links to our sexy wallet export etc. I want him to come out of this month knowing how to turn nothing into a decent amount of money. A lot of my trading skills are wasted as I don't use them (except when doing this project) so I don't want them to die with me. Either way all API info/documentation will be forthcoming at the end of the project, but for now I want Takimi Star to have an exclusive experience in Eve as a new guy interested in trading. I have given Takimi full director access of the [FROM] corporation (From Rags to Riches) and will be training him in ways to utilise orders and assist with trades etc for this project especially during my absence. As this is a bit more extensive than just running courier jobs I will be handing the whole corporation and assets over to Takimi at the end of the project. I can't think of a better incentive for a new person in the game and hope he extends his knowledge learnt to others of similar youth (doesn't need to give out trade secrets but help people) Anyway, I will have our NAV updates in a couple of hours so we can see where things stand. To our auditors as of 1.5 hours ago all orders/assets have begun being processed through the corporate wallet so documentation/logging software will need to switch to monitoring that
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:18:00 - [35] Originally by: Conrad Rock Nice scam in the making. One day you will use this as a success story for an IPO you'll scam. Of course, it all makes sense now.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.25 07:59:00 - [36] Edited by: Bouncer Ricdic on 25/01/2008 07:59:41 End of Day 7 & 8 Report Orders Remaining: 20 out of 41 max open Orders<br>Total in Escrow: 11,589,258.30 ISK (additional 0.00 ISK to cover)<br>Base Broker Fee: 1.0% of order value<br>Transaction Tax: 1.0% of sales value NAV Buy Orders - 11,589,258 Cash - 15,288,124 Assets Jita - 0 Assets Other - 110,000 Sell Orders - 12,746,000 Total NAV - 39,733,382 Day 5 I didn't get much done. I created the corporation so I could work more efficiently with Takimi. So that (plus corporate skills) took away about 2m. But today (Day 6)I did find a few good strong trades which are still proving quite profitable so I am digging into those. Takimi has done a few trades today following my example and thus far almost doubled 2 million isk with similar skills to me and only 2m in operational capital. I am hoping to break 50m by the end of today especially if this trade keeps up. The more cash I have available the easier I can profit off it. I expect this trade to keep good money coming in even at the 100m mark. Till tomorrow
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Cpt Fina Care to share which program you are using to keep track of your transactions / ISK? sure we have a custom fit version of Ray's wallet (one that allows multiple API's logged under one) and using Ambo's EMMA software. Ambo's is local but Ray's is online and will be available to all once we finish the project.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:21:00 - [38] Originally by: Mtber I merely pointed out to Takimi Star that 2 people doing something is hardly the same as 1 person doing it. It's not 2 people doing it I haven't modified or placed a buy order in 2 days now. That is due to my RL and in-game constraints I barely have time to breath. So instead I am taking more of an advisory role. Truth be told, if this project succeeds it will be Takimi who put in the hard yards and him who should bear the congratulations. I just helped point him in the right direction, the rest is all him and thus far he is working great. Sure a couple of price modifications got decimals in the wrong spot but these things happen, there was no substantial losses incurred.
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.27 18:48:00 - [39] Mtber I suggest some reading material
Bouncer Ricdic	Posted - 2008.01.28 01:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Vested Interest Originally by: Bouncer Ricdic Originally by: Cpt Fina Care to share which program you are using to keep track of your transactions / ISK? sure we have a custom fit version of Ray's wallet (one that allows multiple API's logged under one) and using Ambo's EMMA software. Ambo's is local but Ray's is online and will be available to all once we finish the project. Where can I get the version of Ray's that does this? It's exactly what I want. You could start with a whole lot of sexual gratification on Ray

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